How Hitler Humiliated France

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 24, 2016 1:17 pm

Svartalf wrote:we never bowed to that
Vichy Fries.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by laklak » Tue May 24, 2016 1:18 pm

Vichyssoise.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 24, 2016 1:18 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Rum wrote:As a matter of historical fact of course Germany felt humiliated by the settlement after WW1. They had some justification for feeling so too - a fact that Hitler took great advantage of. It goes some way to explaining the glee he obviously felt after the French surrendered.
The Treaty of Versailles paved the way for Hitler's rise to power.
That was the French doing. Merka and many UK officials felt the treaty was too harsh. John Maynard Keynes thought the economics made no sense, and were far to onerous. The French, of course, criticized the treaty for not going far enough....
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Svartalf » Tue May 24, 2016 1:32 pm

the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Tue May 24, 2016 2:27 pm

Svartalf wrote:the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
You related to Marshall Foche?
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 24, 2016 2:54 pm

Svartalf wrote:the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
There were no innocents in in WW1. You were all colonial empires, and nobody was in the right. Austria invaded Serbia over a terrorist assassination, Russia came to the aid of its ally Serbia and attacked Austria, Germany sided with Austria-Hungary, and the French and the Brits came in on the side the Russia. This was not a good vs. evil war. This was a shifting of chess pieces by colonial empires trying to secure their dominance.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Tue May 24, 2016 3:20 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
There were no innocents in in WW1. You were all colonial empires, and nobody was in the right. Austria invaded Serbia over a terrorist assassination, Russia came to the aid of its ally Serbia and attacked Austria, Germany sided with Austria-Hungary, and the French and the Brits came in on the side the Russia. This was not a good vs. evil war. This was a shifting of chess pieces by colonial empires trying to secure their dominance.
Svarty was not talking about WWI.

Although It was France that physically started the 1870 war against Prussia, it was Bismarck's manoeuvring that ensured it would.

That said, without the bloody-minded French vindictiveness and revanchism, manifest in the Versailles Treaty and echoed by Svartalf, there would not have been a second World War.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 24, 2016 3:32 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
There were no innocents in in WW1. You were all colonial empires, and nobody was in the right. Austria invaded Serbia over a terrorist assassination, Russia came to the aid of its ally Serbia and attacked Austria, Germany sided with Austria-Hungary, and the French and the Brits came in on the side the Russia. This was not a good vs. evil war. This was a shifting of chess pieces by colonial empires trying to secure their dominance.
Svarty was not talking about WWI.
How so? The Treaty of Versailles ended WW1.

Hermit wrote: Although It was France that physically started the 1870 war against Prussia, it was Bismarck's manoeuvring that ensured it would.
Sure, but the issue is whether Germany had it coming to them in the Treaty of Versailles, ending WW1. Since none of the countries had a moral high ground over any other, the only reason Germany got pegged in the Treaty of Versailles is because they lost, not because they had it coming to them.
Hermit wrote:
That said, without the bloody-minded French vindictiveness and revanchism, manifest in the Versailles Treaty and echoed by Svartalf, there would not have been a second World War.
Exactly -- but, France and the UK were no more innocent with respect to WW1 than the other colonial powers.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue May 24, 2016 3:38 pm

The Versailles Treaty created the Weimar republic which broke Germany. The French were greedy.

The WW1 was created by bored generals who had not fought for years and wanted to test their armies.
In the film "O What a Lovely War" I think the sentiment is expressed very accurately.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Rum » Tue May 24, 2016 5:09 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
There were no innocents in in WW1. You were all colonial empires, and nobody was in the right. Austria invaded Serbia over a terrorist assassination, Russia came to the aid of its ally Serbia and attacked Austria, Germany sided with Austria-Hungary, and the French and the Brits came in on the side the Russia. This was not a good vs. evil war. This was a shifting of chess pieces by colonial empires trying to secure their dominance.
Svarty was not talking about WWI.
How so? The Treaty of Versailles ended WW1.

Hermit wrote: Although It was France that physically started the 1870 war against Prussia, it was Bismarck's manoeuvring that ensured it would.
Sure, but the issue is whether Germany had it coming to them in the Treaty of Versailles, ending WW1. Since none of the countries had a moral high ground over any other, the only reason Germany got pegged in the Treaty of Versailles is because they lost, not because they had it coming to them.
Hermit wrote:
That said, without the bloody-minded French vindictiveness and revanchism, manifest in the Versailles Treaty and echoed by Svartalf, there would not have been a second World War.
Exactly -- but, France and the UK were no more innocent with respect to WW1 than the other colonial powers.
Even so, the could not look into the future and revenge for the horrors of WW1 was understandable, if not the smartest thing as it turned out.

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by JimC » Tue May 24, 2016 9:22 pm

Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
You related to Marshall Foche?
Tell Hermit to Foche off, Svarty...
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Svartalf » Tue May 24, 2016 9:38 pm

Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
You related to Marshall Foche?
Why should I be, Clémenceau was the guy behind the treaty. and no, I'm just saying that Bismarck's manoeuvering and the conditions for peace he decided on after the Versaillais crushed la Commune are what made France such a German hating people when our traditional enemies wer england and spain.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Feck » Wed May 25, 2016 1:44 am

NOT NEARLY ENOUGH !
Besides, I think it would be more accurate to say Hitler was 'rather mean' to the (less than) half of France that didn't abjectly capitulate.
I wonder how French people feel about the very few people that actually fought against the occupation I mean, they made life so uncomfortable for the vast majority of Quislings
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Wed May 25, 2016 3:07 am

Svartalf wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:the Germans had only themselves to blame for the treaty of Versailles, what they did in the wake of hte 1870 war fully warranted it.
You related to Marshall Foche?
Why should I be, Clémenceau was the guy behind the treaty.
Clémenceau and the Australian Prime Minister Billy Hughes were among the most vindictive negotiators at Versailles, but neither was as extreme as Foch, who advocated the annexation of all German lands left of the Rhine. He was overruled by the rest of the allies.

Since you mentioned the Paris Commune, let me comment that its defeat by the French army perfectly illustrates the vindictive streak among the French. After the fighting ceased several hundred communards were summarily executed, but the execution of prisoners began a week earlier. Estimates range from 6000 to 20,000 French citizens killed by French citizens. When captured communards were paraded through the streets of Paris lined with respectable members of the French bourgeoisie, women took out their hat pins and inserted them into the bodies of the prisoners. The parade turned into an impromptu gamut. That's the way of cowardly fighters whose war is won by others on their behalf, and they unexpectedly, one might argue, undeservedly, find themselves on the winning side. You're just echoing the traditional French sentiment. Happy Vichy day.

I do respect you for not trying to portray the vindictiveness as just, and merely commenting that it is understandable instead. Understandable it may be. Smart it certainly is not. The past 70 years demonstrate that France and Germany can be good neighbours, genuinely cooperative and devoid of standoffishness. If Clémenceau, Hughes, Foch et al had been seen that as a possibility in 1918/9, the greatest 20th century catastrophe would have been avoided.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by JimC » Wed May 25, 2016 3:26 am

Hermit wrote:

If Clémenceau, Hughes, Foch et al had been seen that as a possibility in 1918/9, the greatest 20th century catastrophe would have been avoided.
It may have reduced the chances, but there were many more historical forces leading to the Nazis and WW2 than the hard-line against Germany taken at the end of WW1...
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