Violence and civilisation

[Seabass]

Yes, I'm sure being colonized by a foreign culture has had no effect their morale.

[cronus]

Some folks attach a peace and goodwill myth to a scaling bias and stand back and watch. It might be true that big is beautiful in some instances then there are dinosaurs.

[pErvinalia]

So the violence pinker talks about is between tribes. I don't see that reducing at all. The World Wars and more modern ongoing conflicts would seem to suggest otherwise.

[JimC]

So the violence pinker talks about is between tribes. I don't see that reducing at all. The World Wars and more modern ongoing conflicts would seem to suggest otherwise.

His figures show that, contrary to popular belief, violent acts, per thousand people, have steadily trended downwards. Uneven, of course, with some peaks on the way, but none the less a steady decline per person over the centuries.

[pErvinalia]

Does that include state violence on other states/peoples?

[JimC]

Does that include state violence on other states/peoples?

Violence on people only. So, presumably, that would include civilians killed or injured by bombs in WW2, but not damage to buildings.

The total amount of violence may have increased, but violence per person has decreased.

[pErvinalia]

The state oppresses in more novel ways now.

[rainbow]

To rainbow

That is a fair point. In fact, when government takes over from individual violence, the actions of violence go from citizen to state. The thing is, though, that governments generally kill a lot fewer citizens than citizens without government do.

On tribal killings.
Yes, it is mostly between two tribes rather than within one tribe. It is mostly from raids, and ambushes. Occasional all out war, but more killings in small scale actions.

On the Maori.
No they are not more violent because of genocide by whiteys. Europeans never committed wholesale slaughter of Maori, unlike what happened in the USA and in Australia. It was not all roses, of course. Several British governments were responsible for large scale theft of land from Maori. This led to some small scale conflict, but the death toll was never that high. Uniquely, the relationship between Britain and the Maori began with a treaty, which gave Maori full rights as citizens. Mostly, with the exception of stealing land, the treaty was honored. Pity about the land problem, but the Maori were never treated as badly as American and Australian native peoples.

In certain areas of Africa, inter-tribal conflict is severe, in other areas non-existent. Zambia has almost no tribal conflict despite there being over 70 tribal groups living as neighbours.

...just proves that all generalisations are false.

[JimC]

To rainbow

That is a fair point. In fact, when government takes over from individual violence, the actions of violence go from citizen to state. The thing is, though, that governments generally kill a lot fewer citizens than citizens without government do.

On tribal killings.
Yes, it is mostly between two tribes rather than within one tribe. It is mostly from raids, and ambushes. Occasional all out war, but more killings in small scale actions.

On the Maori.
No they are not more violent because of genocide by whiteys. Europeans never committed wholesale slaughter of Maori, unlike what happened in the USA and in Australia. It was not all roses, of course. Several British governments were responsible for large scale theft of land from Maori. This led to some small scale conflict, but the death toll was never that high. Uniquely, the relationship between Britain and the Maori began with a treaty, which gave Maori full rights as citizens. Mostly, with the exception of stealing land, the treaty was honored. Pity about the land problem, but the Maori were never treated as badly as American and Australian native peoples.

In certain areas of Africa, inter-tribal conflict is severe, in other areas non-existent. Zambia has almost no tribal conflict despite there being over 70 tribal groups living as neighbours.

...just proves that all generalisations are false.

BG should have said "was mostly between two tribes..." since Pinker was referring to the period in human history where all was tribal. Certain current societies may have strong tribal traditions, but the overlay is one of central government.

[Blind groper]

As Jim pointed out, it is a long term trend with random fluctuations here and there. There are tribes today that have adopted the civilising process and live pretty much at peace, and other tribes (including street gangs) which are still quite violent.

However, a drop in violent deaths from 1000 per 100,000 people per year in primitive peoples down to about 1 per 100,000 per year, wich is the norm in most modern western nations, is pretty damn dramatic!

[Audley Strange]

As Jim pointed out, it is a long term trend with random fluctuations here and there. There are tribes today that have adopted the civilising process and live pretty much at peace, and other tribes (including street gangs) which are still quite violent.

However, a drop in violent deaths from 1000 per 100,000 people per year in primitive peoples down to about 1 per 100,000 per year, wich is the norm in most modern western nations, is pretty damn dramatic!

Of their own people....

[pErvinalia]

As Jim pointed out, it is a long term trend with random fluctuations here and there. There are tribes today that have adopted the civilising process and live pretty much at peace, and other tribes (including street gangs) which are still quite violent.

However, a drop in violent deaths from 1000 per 100,000 people per year in primitive peoples down to about 1 per 100,000 per year, wich is the norm in most modern western nations, is pretty damn dramatic!

That still seems shaky. Extrapolated to 6 billion, that's only 60,000 violent deaths per year across the globe. That's not correct. There's way more violent deaths than that per year.

[Blind groper]

To rEvo

Note that I said 'modern western nations'. It is true that the average rate of violence is higher across the world.

[JimC]

To rEvo

Note that I said 'modern western nations'. It is true that the average rate of violence is higher across the world.

...and in the US, an old-fashioned western nation...

[pErvinalia]

To rEvo

Note that I said 'modern western nations'. It is true that the average rate of violence is higher across the world.

Ok, that's what? - 3,500 violent deaths associated with the US? How many people did the US military kill last year? How many people died a violent death in the US last year? I think you'll find it was a fuckload more than 3,500. And average it out over the last 23 years and it will be even worse.