Dying for a lie

[FBM]

A few names of historical Roman leaders, city names, the date of the census, etc, are supported by Roman records and some anthropology, IIRC. .

But you can verify those, so you don't have to assume. And they're hardly facts that would support the tenets of christianity.

And wasn't the census bullshit anyway?

IIRC, the idea of a census isn't the problem, it's the way the census was supposedly done - sending people back to the cities of their ancestors. The Romans were far too practical to start such a logistical nightmare that would have disrupted the entire area when one simple question would have satisfied any need to know where their families originated.

It's been years since I studied that in school. Fuzzy memory.

[Ayaan]

A few names of historical Roman leaders, city names, the date of the census, etc, are supported by Roman records and some anthropology, IIRC. .

But you can verify those, so you don't have to assume. And they're hardly facts that would support the tenets of christianity.

And wasn't the census bullshit anyway?

IIRC, the idea of a census isn't the problem, it's the way the census was supposedly done - sending people back to the cities of their ancestors. The Romans were far too practical to start such a logistical nightmare that would have disrupted the entire area when one simple question would have satisfied any need to know where their families originated.

It's been years since I studied that in school. Fuzzy memory.

It's been a bit closer in time for me. The census mentioned in the NT was just a device to get Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem for the birth. I don't think there is much historical evidence to support that there was a census at that time, however, especially one done in such an asinine manner.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Then there's the fact that the Gospels weren't written by Matthew. et al., and only seven of 21 Epistles can be traced to Paul. There's more forgeries there than you can shake a torah at.

[Ayaan]

Then there's the fact that the Gospels weren't written by Matthew. et al., and only seven of 21 Epistles can be traced to Paul. There's more forgeries there than you can shake a torah at.

There is that too.

[Feck]

yes it must be true which bits are true is a different matter The new testament is so clear about the facts Proving the resurrection


No guard is mentioned. Mk.15:44-47; Lk.23:52-56; Jn.19:38-42.
Only those keeping the words of Jesus will never see death. Jn.8:51.
Jesus’ disciples will be killed. Mt.24:3-9. All men die once. Heb.9:27.
Upon their arrival, the stone was still in place. Mt.28:1 2.
Upon their arrival, the stone had been removed. Mk.16:4; Lk.24:2; Jn.20:1.
There was an earthquake. Mt.28:2.
There was no earthquake. Mk.16:5; Lk.24:2-4; Jn.20:12.
The visitors ran to tell the disciples. Mt.28:8.
The visitors told the eleven and all the rest. Lk.24:9. The visitors said nothing to anyone. Mk.16:8.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was right at the tomb. Jn.20:12-14.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb. Mt.28:8,9. Jesus first resurrection appearance was on the road to Emmaus. Lk.24:13-16.
One doubted. Jn.20:24.
Some doubted. Mt.28:17. All doubted. Mk.16:11; Lk.24:11,14.
Jesus said that his blood was shed for many. Mk.14:24.
Jesus said his blood was shed for his disciples. Lu.22:20.
Simon of Cyrene was forced to bear the cross of Jesus. Mt.27:32; Mk.15:21; Lu.23:26.
Jesus bore his own cross. Jn.19:16,17.
Jesus was offered vinegar and gall to drink. Mt.27:34.
Jesus was offered vinegar to drink. Jn.19:29,30. Jesus was offered wine and myrrh to drink. Mk.15:23.
Jesus refused the drink offered him. Mk.15:23.
Jesus tasted the drink offered and then refused. Mt.27:34. Jesus accepted the drink offered him. Jn.19:30.
Both “thieves” mocked Jesus on the cross. Mt. 27:44; Mk.15:32.
One “thief” sided with Jesus on the cross. Lu.23:39-41.
Joseph of Arimathaea boldly asked for the body of Jesus. Mk.15:43.
Joseph of Arimathaea secretly asked for the body of Jesus. Jn.19:38.
Jesus was laid in a nearby tomb. Mk.15:46; Lu.23:53; Jn.19:41.
Jesus was laid in Joseph’s new tomb. Mt.27:59,60.
A great stone was rolled in front of the tomb. Mt.27:60; Mk.15:46.
There was nothing in front of the tomb. Lu.23:55; Jn.19:41.
Nicodemus prepared the body with spices. Jn.19:39,40.
Failing to notice this, the women bought spices to prepare the body later. Mk. 16:1; Lu.23:55,56.
The body was anointed. Jn.19:39,40.
The body was not anointed. Mk.15:46 to 16:1; Lk.23:55 to 24:1.
The women bought materials before the sabbath. Lu.23:56.
The women bought materials after the sabbath. Mk.16:1.
Jesus was first seen by Cephas, then the twelve. 1 Cor.15:5.
Jesus was first seen by the two Marys. Mt.28:1,8,9. Jesus was first seen by Mary Magdalene. Mk.16:9; Jn.20:1,14,15. Jesus was first seen by Cleopas and others. Lu.24:17,18. Jesus was first seen by the disciples. Acts 10:40,41.
The two Marys went to the tomb. Mt.28:1.
The two Marys and Salome went to the tomb. Mk.16:1. Several women went to the tomb. Lu.24:10. Only Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. Jn.20:1.
It was dawn when Mary went to the tomb. Mt.28:1; Mk.16:2.
It was dark when Mary went to the tomb. Jn.20:1.
An angel sat on the stone at the door of the tomb. Mt.28:2.
A man was sitting inside the tomb. Mk.16:5.
Two men were standing inside the tomb. Lk.24:3,4.
Two angels were sitting inside the tomb. Jn.20:12.
Peter did not go into the tomb but stooped and looked inside. Lk.24:12.
Peter did go into the tomb, and another disciple stooped and looked inside. Jn.20:3-6.
After the resurrection, the disciples held Jesus by the feet. Mt.28:9.
After the resurrection, Jesus told Thomas to touch his side. John 20:27. After the resurrection, Jesus said that he was not to be touched. Jn.20:17.
Mary first saw Jesus at the tomb. Jn.20:11-15.
Mary first saw Jesus on her way home. Mt.28:8-10.
The women entered the tomb. Mk.16:5; Lk.24:3.
The women stayed outside the tomb. Jn.20:11.
The disciples were frightened when they saw Jesus. Lk.24:36,37.
The disciples were glad when they first saw Jesus. Jn.20:20.
Twelve disciples saw Jesus. 1 Cor.15:5.
Eleven disciples saw Jesus. Thomas was not there. Mt.28:16,17; Jn.20:19-25.
The disciples doubted that Jesus had risen from the dead. Mt.28:17.
The Pharisees and chief priests believed it possible. Mt.27:62-66.
Jesus ascended on the third day after the resurrection. Lk.24:21,50,51.
Jesus ascended the same day as the crucifixion. Lk.23:42 43. Jesus ascended forty days after the resurrection. Acts 1:3,9.
At the time of the ascension, there were about 120 brethren. Acts 1:15.
At the time of the ascension, there were about 500 brethren. 1 Cor.15:6.
The moneychangers incident occurred at the end of Jesus’ career. Mt.21:11,12.
The moneychangers incident occurred at the beginning of Jesus’ career. Jn.2:11-15.
Zacharias was the son of Jehoida, the priest. 2 Chr.24:20.
Jesus said that Zacharias was the son of Barachias. Mt.23:35. (Note: The name Barachias or Barachiah does not appear in the OT.)
The coming of the kingdom will be accompanied by signs and miracles. Mt.24:29-33; Mk.13:24-29.
It will not be accompanied by signs and miracles since it occurs from within. Lk.17:20,21.
The kingdom was prepared from the beginning. Mt.25:34.
Jesus said that he was going to go and prepare the kingdom. Jn.14:2,3.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. Mk.3:29.
All sins are forgivable. Acts 13:39; Col.2:13; 1 Jn.1:9.
The ascension took place while the disciples were seated together at a table. Mk.16:14-19.
The ascension took place outdoors at Bethany. Lk.24:50,51. The ascension took place outdoors at Mt. Olivet. Acts 1:9-12.
The holy spirit was with John from before he was born. Lk.1:15,41.
The holy spirit was with Elizabeth before John’s birth. Lk.1:41. The holy spirit was with Zechariah. Lk.1:67. The holy spirit was with Simeon. Lk.2:25. The holy spirit is obtained by asking. Lk.11:13. The holy spirit did not come into the world until after Jesus had departed. Jn.7:39; Jn.16:7; Acts 1:3-8.
Sometimes God is responsible for unbelief. 2 Thes.2:11,12.
Sometimes Jesus is responsible for unbelief. Mk.4:11,12. The devil causes unbelief. Lk.8:12.
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer. 1 Jn.3:15.
If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar. 1 Jn.4:20. No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his brother. Lk.14:26.
Believers do not come into judgment. Jn.5:24.
All people come into judgment. Mt.12:36; 2 Cor.5:10; Heb.9:27; 1 Pet.1:17; Jude 14,15; Rev.20:12,13.
Jesus says that, if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. Jn.8:14.
Jesus says that, if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true. Jn.5:31.
Men can choose whether or not to believe. Jn.5:38-47.
Only God chooses who will believe. Jn.6:44.
None of Jesus’ followers would be lost. Jn.10:27-29.
Some of Jesus’ followers would be lost. 1 Tim.4:1.
Jesus is the ruling prince of this world. Rev.1:5.
The prince of this world will be cast out. Jn.12:31.
Jesus says all men will be saved. Jn.3:17.
Only 144,000 virgin men will be saved. Rev. 14:1-4.
God wants all men to be saved. 1 Tim.2:3,4; 2 Pet.3:9.
God does not want all men to be saved. Jn.12:40.
Peter asks Jesus where he is going. Jn.13:36.
Thomas asks Jesus where he is going. Jn.14:5. Jesus said that no one asked where he was going. Jn.16:5.
Jesus lost only one disciple. Jn.17:12.
Jesus lost no disciples. Jn.18:9.
Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth. Jn.18:37.
The truth has always been evident. Rom.1:18-20.
During his first resurrection appearance, Jesus gave his disciples the holy spirit. Jn.20:22.
The holy spirit was given to the disciples after his ascension. Acts 1:3-8.
The world could not contain all that could be written of Jesus. Jn.21:25.
All was written. Acts.1:1.

[uair]

It looks to me that I didn't get myself understood in the first place, probably because I wasn't clear enough.
Let me state the whole thing again: when confronted with the possibility that Jesus body was stolen by the apostles and therefore he didn't rise from the dead, some people often reply that this is not a possibility because, they say, people won't risk their lives, or even die, for something they know it's false. They stated that
(1) some of the apostles really died defending the idea that Jesus rose from the dead
(2) people won't die for something they know is false (if the apostles stole the body they presumably would know he didn't rise from the dead ;-)
(3) therefore, the apostles believed that Jesus rose from the dead
This is the argument I want to address and I think I can't present it clearer than this.
If I manage to prove that premise (2) is not necessarily true, I think it would render the argument invalid. Shame on me, I didn't check that premise (1) is true and perhaps it's simpler to go into that direction.
Anyway, in order to prove that premise (2) is not necessarily so, I should find at least one case where someone died for something he considered to be false. This would imply that at least some people in some situations, offer their lives for false ideas.
So, I came up to the forum, and asked if someone heard of such a case. Note that in order to continue with the argument, I had to assume that Jesus existed, that the gospels contain at least some truth about his life, etc. but these assumptions I made for the sake of argument and for no other reason. This is what I meant when I said that "I think it's obvious I assume there's some historical truth in the New Testament". I don't think this implies that I believe everything its written in the gospels just because they mention some actual events or places.
Also, no trickery or cunning ploys running underneath, because my question is (and always was) "have you ever heard of someone that died for something he considered to be false?". I think its plausible that something like this ever occurred, but I can't point my finger to a particular case, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist at all ;-)
Thanks for your replies and looking forward to become part of this forum :-)

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Welcome to Ratz, uair.

Frankly, there is a far larger hole in your argument than simply proving that point 2 is false. You have no evidence that any of the fact reported in the gospels are true - and certainly none of the dialogue and actions of the apostles. Perhaps you could address that issue first and then come back to us?

[Hermit]

Thanks for your clarification, Uair.

Let's see now:

(1) some of the apostles really died defending the idea that Jesus rose from the dead
(2) people won't die for something they know is false (if the apostles stole the body they presumably would know he didn't rise from the dead ;-)
(3) therefore, the apostles believed that Jesus rose from the dead

How do you get from there to "the gospels contain at least some truth about his life"? Are you not assuming that the bible contains some truth before you even postulate the above assumptions? If you do, you'll need to source evidence of the apostles' existence - their lives and deaths - other than from the bible, for instance.

Edit: Thanks for that XC. You sent your post as I was typing mine. We are thinking along very similar lines. I am hopeful Uair will respond to them directly.

[FBM]

It's been a bit closer in time for me. The census mentioned in the NT was just a device to get Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem for the birth. I don't think there is much historical evidence to support that there was a census at that time, however, especially one done in such an asinine manner.

Looked it up. Yup. You nailed it, Ayaan. It was pure fiction.

[uair]

Welcome to Ratz, uair.

Frankly, there is a far larger hole in your argument than simply proving that point 2 is false. You have no evidence that any of the fact reported in the gospels are true - and certainly none of the dialogue and actions of the apostles. Perhaps you could address that issue first and then come back to us?

Hi Xamonas,
you are right about the big hole in the argument, but as I already said "... that in order to continue with the argument, I had to assume that Jesus existed, that the gospels contain at least some truth about his life, etc. but these assumptions I made for the sake of argument and for no other reason ...". I just want to show that the argument is flawed even if one assumes that the gospels are true (this is a big assumption, but it's made ONLY for the sake of argument).

How do you get from there to "the gospels contain at least some truth about his life"? Are you not assuming that the bible contains some truth before you even postulate the above assumptions? If you do, you'll need to source evidence of the apostles' existence - their lives and deaths - other than from the bible, for instance.

I never got there, and I wasn't suggesting that "the gospels contain at least some truth about his life" is a logical consequence of the argument. You got it right, I am assuming that the bible contains some truth before I postulate (1), but as before, it's an assumption made for the sake of argument ONLY. Bear in mind that even if the argument turns up to be a sound argument (which I doubt, because I think premise (2) is not true), it doesn't prove that the gospels contain true historical records. This is an assumption made beforehand and is never dealt in the argument.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"it's an assumption made for the sake of argument ONLY."

"Let's say I won't come in your mouth is a given. Then there no reason for you to not blow me."

[Berthold]

I was unable to find a single case of a person (or persons) that died for an idea he (or she or they) considered to be false. It seems unlikely to find such a case, but human psychology is full of surprises. Consider the following: someone could die for something he knew to be false if he thinks that his death will help an ultimate cause.

I'd like you to tell us where you trying to go with this.

There is a film about a man who jettisons his identity because he really hated what he had done during his life, and adopts that of someone else. After a few years he has built a reputation of a caring and respected member of his community, but then someone else turns up and reveals that the man whose identity he has assumed was a murderer. Rather than admit that he was an impostor, the man insists maintaining his adopted identity, goes on trial instead for a murder he did not commit, and gets hanged. It's fiction, but it is plausible, and I would not be surprised if something like that has happened in real life.

Another film: "Dead Ringer" (1964) with Bette Davis.