Dying for a lie

[FBM]

It's kind of a trick question, innit? Let's say the cause is fighting communism in N. Vietnam, and the US invites S. Korean soldiers, who were very poor, and pays them very well for their services. Are the SK soldiers themselves fighting for the US's cause? No. They're fighting for $$ to send home so as to feed their families. They're fighting the same war for a different cause: family. Other subtle causes that may underlie the ostensible cause are things like, duty, filial piety, honor, etc, that may not be part of the ostensible cause. I'm willing to bet that if you do find an example, the xtians will take it apart with a similar analysis.

[Robert_S]

Two words to consider: Jim Jones.

What contemporary evidence is there that the apostles were executed and what they actually believed they were dying for.

[Pappa]

It wouldn't surprise me to find that many people have died over things that they once believed in, but were too embarrassed to admit they were wrong about.

I'm sure that's true.

[FBM]

Two words to consider: Jim Jones.

What contemporary evidence is there that the apostles were executed and what they actually believed they were dying for.

Oooh. Good one. What about that Karesh guy? Didn't he think he was teh messiah, too?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I love it when these stair-stepping scheme don't go the way the OP expected them to go.

[uair]

Risked their lives, yes, maybe. you said people that did die for an idea. Being willing to die for one is different.

You are right, but finding an example of someone who actually died for something he knew to be false would settle the case.
I should explain a little bit: when talking about the resurrection with christian people, they quickly dismiss the possibility that the apostles themselves stole the body from the grave, because many of them risked their lives and even died defending the idea that Jesus resurrected. This fact, they say, proves that the apostles themselves believed in the resurrection. I'm not certain about that and, as others did in this thread, it's not hard to imagine situations where people would actually die for a lie (it could help to spread your ideas, it could save someone else's life, etc.). But finding a real example of such behavior would be ideal.
I realize it's hard to find a well documented case, not because it's something rare (maybe it is, maybe it is not), but because you would need some evidence that suggests that the person who died actually did not believed in the ideas that caused his death.
I guess I should continue searching, and if you ever learn that something similar ever happened, please let me know :-)

You' re working from the assumption that events in the New Testament happened as written - or happened at all. First you have to establish that they happened as written and work from there.

For the sake of argument, I grant them all that. I'm no historian or New Testament scholar, and I don't have the will, time or skill to take such a huge enterprise like the one you suggest ;-) I think it's obvious I assume there's some historical truth in the New Testament, and I am trying to address a particular argument only, not to establish the historical value of the document. I'll leave that to the experts.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"I think it's obvious I assume there's some historical truth in the New Testament"

Why?

[Ayaan]

"I think it's obvious I assume there's some historical truth in the New Testament"

Why?

My question exactly. Why?

[FBM]

A few names of historical Roman leaders, city names, the date of the census, etc, are supported by Roman records and some anthropology, IIRC. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of it is hogwash, tho. A lot of snake oil has been sold by mixing a little truth with a lot of fictitious drivel. It's a age-old tactic for selling bullshit.

[Hermit]

I am trying to address a particular argument only

Again: I'd like you to tell us where you are trying to go with this.

I am not particularly keen on people who pose leading questions and think it is a cunning ploy in an argument to not give us an idea about what they think a range of answers might possibly be, let alone what they personally think is the case. It's not cunning, Uair. It's underhanded or cowardly.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A few names of historical Roman leaders, city names, the date of the census, etc, are supported by Roman records and some anthropology, IIRC. .

But you can verify those, so you don't have to assume. And they're hardly facts that would support the tenets of christianity.

And wasn't the census bullshit anyway?

[Loki]

I know Harry Potter iz true cos it has London in it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I know Harry Potter iz true cos it has London in it.

Iz Alter-London cuz haz no durtees.

[Ayaan]

A few names of historical Roman leaders, city names, the date of the census, etc, are supported by Roman records and some anthropology, IIRC. .

But you can verify those, so you don't have to assume. And they're hardly facts that would support the tenets of christianity.

And wasn't the census bullshit anyway?

IIRC, the idea of a census isn't the problem, it's the way the census was supposedly done - sending people back to the cities of their ancestors. The Romans were far too practical to start such a logistical nightmare that would have disrupted the entire area when one simple question would have satisfied any need to know where their families originated.

Edit: The NT census was just a literary device to get Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem in order to satisfy a prophecy.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A few names of historical Roman leaders, city names, the date of the census, etc, are supported by Roman records and some anthropology, IIRC. .

But you can verify those, so you don't have to assume. And they're hardly facts that would support the tenets of christianity.

And wasn't the census bullshit anyway?

IIRC, the idea of a census isn't the problem, it's the way the census was supposedly done - sending people back to the cities of their ancestors. The Romans were far too practical to start such a logistical nightmare that would have disrupted the entire area when one simple question would have satisfied any need to know where their families originated.

Wasn't Nazareth the wrong town for Joseph?